On the Supposed Legitimate, "Political" Concerns over Interracial Dating

Lately, identity politics – which I define as "politicized" thinking that is mostly a sign of a lack of experience in the politics of the "real world" and/or a pseudo-intellectual rationalization for good ole' bigotry – seems to trying its darndest to "interfere with my social agenda," as the Great Man – Bernie Mac – once so aptly put it.

In my life in Korea, most of my social interaction, both at home and at play, is spent with myriad Korean friendly colleagues and acquaintances, a few American closer friends, and as has been the case in the last few years, a Korean girlfriend.

Whoa. A foreigner dating a Korean woman? Is he a rice king? Does he have a fetish? Is she washing his socks and walking on his back? Must be. Must be important, too, since it even came up recently in The Korea Times. THAT must make it a social problem.

But wait! Look at that brown Samoan-looking dude! He's part Korean! In fact, "half" Korean! He's one of "us." He in da family. So it's ok. At least he's not a white guy.

But – hold the phone. Let me take a minute to break down the silly "logic" of identity politics-thinking for those of you who just didn't instantly get what the gist of my entire argument-to-come will be from the first line of this blog entry. And when I mean "break down the logic of identity politics," I mean just that – it should all come crashing down around you like the walls of the Matrix when Neo takes the red pill – this is not just a narrow defense of the right to bed Korean chicks.

The fun(ny) part is that my ability to even make this argument – and usually win, as I did with most of the undergraduates in the many classes I taught at Berkeley – comes from the logic of identity politics itself! I love it!

I'll also start it off strong, with enough of a seemingly harsh and insensitive opening to make people think that I am the simple-minded oaf they suspect I am, so it will be easier to dismiss my argument; but unfortunately, the opening line will seem offensive enough to warrant further reading. And then, I will have that unsuspecting reader in the palm of my grubby, brown, half-breed hands. Mu-ha-ha. Begin smug, self-satisfied blog entry NOW:

So. I'll say it – I generally do not want to hang around most of the ex-pat Korean Americans I meet. This is not to say I don't have Korean American friends, since I do, and as I live in Korea, a majority of the Americans I know are of Korean descent; but I meet many, many more who don't pass my social muster, so I tend to just smile and pretend like I think as they do.

What the heck do I mean by that? I mean that I get a sense of how developed one's thinking is on the subject of identity politics from being privy to listening to conversations about the horrors of interracial white men with Korean women. The reason I even get to hear this is because most Korean Ams who know me tend to think I'm an "insider" in this respect and generally don't self-censor around me when they point out a "gross white guy" with an overly-happy-to-be-there Korean girl over-enunciating her English "r's" and overdoing her dipthongs. Since I'm Korean-Girl-Approved™ by virtue of the fact that I "have a Korean mother" and am a "real person of color" by virtue of the fact that my "half-Korean" status comes from a Black man's sperm and not a white man's, I'm "down." Actually, in most states in the US, I'm still "down by law." MC Shan would improve.

Alternatively, my alarm bells go off when I see people react to my Korean language ability. Korean Americans I meet eventually make an inordinate amount of commentary and expend a ridiculous amount of mental energy – at some point in their interactions with me – on not just the subject of interracial liaisons, but my ability to speak the "mother" tongue. Since who one dates and the extent to which one speaks the language of the "homeland" are the largest determinants of "authenticity" in terms of identity back in the race-obsessed US of A – and this is not just limited to Korean Americans, dear reader – these are the sorest points for Korean Ams doing the inevitable "homeland tour" thing in Korea, when the politics of identity seem to be actually most relevant.

Hey, I did the homeland tour thing. I once stressed out about how much Korean I could or could not speak. I once fretted over who I dated and what that would seem to "mean." But as living in Korea became less and less some symbolic journey, and my ability to speak Korean grew as part of my coping with the real-world necessities of living in the Korean equivalent of semi-rural Kentucky, my trappings of "authentic" Koreanness were merely functional, evolved of practical concerns. When I returned to the United States after a couple years living in pre-Internet Korea (1994-1996), I entered graduate school in the epicenter of Korean American identity politicking - Cali!

Soon, I learned that a brown man who looks Samoan but speaks some Korean makes most Korean undergraduates uncomfortable and insecure. Soon, I learned that some people even thought I was purposefully doing something to make them feel bad about themselves, so I stopped doing Korean karaoke in public and kept my voice down when talking to occasional Korean friends I made while living in the international dorm. Actually, Korean exchange students never found me nearly as weird as Korean American undergraduates. Soon, I learned that it was near-downright rude to speak Korean unless absolutely necessary (even as I had to get used to Koream males on campus greeting each other with "what's up, nigga?!"). This included even 4th-year Korean language class, which was full – of course – with exclusively "heritage speakers." My crime? Speaking in response to questions in Korean. I just learned to keep my head down and save the questions for when they were absolutely necessary. In that situation, it wasn't even like my language skills were more advanced – most of the people were 1.5 (more like 1.2?) generation Korean language speakers there for the easy A. I was just plain weird in that situation.

And – back to the present. So most of the conversations I have with younger Korean Ams here in Korea tend to center around how "cool it is" that I can speak Korean conversationally (despite the fact that logically, I've logged around five years here in-country and working, so my Korean had damn well better be aiight), talking about the same old topics that seem to always get Koream goats – Korean men are so sexist, Korean women are too thin, Korean taxi drivers always yell at me, I wish my Korean was as good as X, or how I really want to do a documentary on either a) the comfort women, b) the sex industry, or c) plastic surgery. My prediction for the next topic for the intrepid Korean American researcher: the "Korean Wave" and it's meaning for Korea/Asian American identity. I don't know – I'm just making stuff up.

Anyway, dear reader, you might see that conversations with most Koreams, who, regardless of age, are united in perspective by the fact that most are no more than 6 months to a year in the country. Some few are here longer, perhaps a year or more. And I've found that the longer people are here, the more interesting conversations I tend to have. So the thing about Korean Americans is not that I categorically hate them. I don't have any wild, unfounded prejudices. In sum, since most Koream thinking is deeply American (identity politics and the constant conversation about me, me, me), and this common thought-set is informed by unfortunately limited and superficial experiences in Korea (language/cultural exchange programs often mediated to some extent by inevitably troubled relations with relatives with whom one is not used to spending long stretches of time, let alone living). So when all that is added up, and results in a population that is mostly wet-behind-the-ears in terms of not being able to get a deeper Korea experience than as a student, and not generally for longer than a year – you get – the same conversations in Shinchon/Hongdae/Apku bars and nightclubs.

Note: the same thing can be said for most other ex-pats here in Korea, for example English teachers. I'm not saying that I categorically don't like them, or think I'm better. But given the same entry conditions, mode of living, and relative experience in-country, conversations tend to revolve around the same plot points. It's just not my crowd, and I also tend to make those folks uncomfortable, as they do me. It's a structural thing, not personal. GI's are the same situation for me – even though my dad was retired Army, as was half of my family – it's just a matter of not having the same concerns.

But the difference is – I just can't avoid running into Korean Americans. Not that I want to, since this is the source of most of my close friends. But it's hard – for the purposes of my social agenda – to weed the wheat from the – ahem – people less interesting to me. And since most of the people doing research or university-level teaching in Korean Studies are Korean American, this is inevitably my crowd. Trust me - it's not by virtue of genetics.

That being said, in the last couple of weeks, I've been having such conversations with friends' friends and other random Korean American people I've randomly socialized with, and have had to endure again the oft-repeated lament about "another" Korean girl with a "lame" white dude.

Do I disagree that there are a lotta lame white (and other) dudes who snag some groovy Korean girl way above the level of their abilities back home? Nope. Don't I see a lotta more weirdos in the ex-pat population that at home? Yep – a lot! Don't I look when I see an international/interracial couple pass by? Oh, yeah – I always catch a furtive second look. But do I categorically disapprove? No way. Why would that be?

Because this "politically correct" fretting and "concern" that it's "problematic" is just intellectualized cover for racist hatred of "miscegenation." That's it. Nothing more. When I hear such talk, I get frustrated that they don't just call "a spade a spade." It is a superficial and flimsy cover that masks a simple racist revulsion and racialized paternalism felt when considering "white" cock entering "yellow" pussy, which is then compounded by and refracted through many Koream males' own gendered experience with racial otherization back in the US.

Hey – I understand it. It makes a certain kind of sense. I understand the sentiments, since I have them myself, buried deep down in my psyche. I lived in the same nearly psychotic obsession with race in American culture, an inevitable psycho-cultural pattern informed by hundreds of years of intense fear, loathing, tension, and guilt over the supposed "races" to which we all allegedly belong.

Except that when these feelings come rising up, I filter them through some informed thinking on the subject, a little bit of logic, and some always useful thought experimentation that generally involves me stepping into someone else's shoes.

So when – as is sooo often the case when speaking with Korean American males who don't utilize some similar sort of filter to compensate for personal complexes and nasty prejudices before putting mouth in gear – I am at a restaurant having a perfectly pleasant-yet-insipid conversation about the new Star Wars movie, the fact that Xbox 360 is going to be high-def, or how much I hate certain of my bosses, when an interracial couple passes by coming back from the buffet counter and a Koream guy who I don't even know well starts going off about his emasculization and barely hides his disgust at even seeing such a couple sitting together...well – it just plain spoils my dinner.

Because – let's be real – people don't get all up in arms and hot under the collar about marriage demographics, outmarriage rates, or any other sociological minutiae. Well, maybe sociologists or other dedicated academics might, but not the Koream guy going on and on about it across the table from me in the Sizzler's. And hey, even academics spewing on about it really aren't that concerned for "the people" or the "minjok" or other notions of "racial purity." Waitaminnit - even if they were, they'd be racist, too!

Just say it, just like old school Southern white dudes do/did – "I don't want to imagine them fucking MY women!" I'd respect that more than the bullshit, pseudo-intellectualized rationalizations that are generally (and poorly) bandied about in public. They just barely keep the discourse seemingly respectable, even though to a well-trained and critical mind, the origins of such sentiments are as plain as day.

On and on I have to listen to Korean American men moan about how much the white man has taken away their masculinity, about how they've been maligned in the media, or "their" women are the object of the white man's common, heterosexual affection.

Man, I agree with ya. What you say is 100% true, dawg.

But fucking GET OVER YOURSELF, already.

As a fat brown man with curly hair and chicken legs, I'd love to for once be ASSUMED to be intelligent when I walk in a room. I'd love to have had the financial privelege to have even considered coming to Korea to explore my identity issues before graduating from college. I'd love to have money to burn in Kangnam bars, or hang out in Korean-exclusive joints. I've only been on a sogaeting a couple of times in my life, but most Korean women don't want to meet someone like me on purpose, and I don't blame them. I can't play basketball, don't rap, and my dick is not even near to being inordinately large.

That's right, I said it. I talked about penis size. The ultimate taboo! The politically correct and complex-assuaging conventional wisdom is that there is no variation in penis size across "racial" groups, even though there seems to be quite a bit of phenotypical variation in nearly every other conceivable aspect of appearance. Are African American men generally taller than east Asian men? Are white women generally taller than Asian women? Do Korean people tend to have straight hair and Black people curly? But everyone's penis size is exactly the same. Ha. Everyone knows, as Paul Mooney so aptly puts it, that Black men "are packing." I say this to make a point, and I DO have a point.

This racialized fear, envy, and loathing is like a bag of bricks – "you just gotta put it down," as Al Pacino so subtly put it in the film The Devil's Advocate.

I just shake my head when The Banana Man goes through such contortions in Koream Magazine to prove that Korean men's cocks are as big as white or black men's (in an article I remember from a few years back) instead of raising the level of discourse to say what needs to be said: why the hell does penis size play such a huge role in determining a man's self worth? Why are you buying into the white man's narrow definition of your own masculinity? Why do you let yourself be defined by such obviously white-oriented stereotypes and definitions (i.e. Asian male emasuculation, African American hypermasculinization)?

Please, fellow Koreams, GET OVER IT and stop passing off your unresolved and unexamined complexes off as something worthy of public discussion. I have issues and complexes, too, except that I filter out the unreasonable, don't broadcast my racist inclinations, and I certainly don't let it "interfere with my social agenda."

For us Koreams in general, imagine how liberating it will be to stop judging your personal identity in terms of how "good" your Korean ability is, how many taxi drivers are rude to you (news flash: Korean taxi drivers find a way to be rude to ALL people, not just YOU), or who you are dating. For Korean American men specifically, get over the white man, the penis complex, and leave the fretting about stereotypes where they belong – in the 80's and before. Man, we got MILF-lovin' John Cho and fatty-rollin' Kal Penn as role models now. Yes, they still form their masculinity around somewhat homophobic banter and heterosexist thinking, but that's another fish to fry.

I'm just saying, can't we all just get an identity that's not so Americano-selfish and ready-made-out-of-the-box?

And can't we just stop the racist playa-hatin'?

Damn!

Comments

[Muninn]

Damn....that was an amazing post. It was crude in places and full of anger but lots of really important well-made points and great passion about an important issue. I hope to be reading more from you soon!

[bluejives]

Hi,

Great essay, good points. You're quite articulate.

But for someone who telling others to "get over it" you seem quite absorbed in the issue yourself, seeing as how you've allotted a significant portion of your blog discussing it.

I have to differ on one point you've made however. It's this:

"Because this "politically correct" fretting and "concern" that it's "problematic" is just intellectualized cover for racist hatred of "miscegenation." That's it. Nothing more. When I hear such talk, I get frustrated that they don't just call "a spade a spade." It is a superficial and flimsy cover that masks a simple racist revulsion and racialized paternalism felt when considering "white" cock entering "yellow" pussy, which is then compounded by and refracted through many Koream males' own gendered experience with racial otherization back in the US."

Basically what you're saying is that KA guys's objection to Korean women dating White guys is just simply sheer racism in disguise and no different from the attitude of, say, rednecks in the American South who frown upon seeing White women with Black men.

First of all, you're wrong. Secondly, for someone who identifies himself as a researcher (ostensibly in sociological topics) and has spent extended effort in exploring all the subtle nuances of Fetish, esp in the context of defending the opposite side of the argument regarding interracial relationships involving Korean women, your quick judgment regarding KA guys seems a little too, well...a little too pat and simplistic, if you don't mind my saying so.

You yourself look quite African-American (or as you put it, "brown-skinned Samoan") who is dating a Korean girl but the KA guys are not giving YOU grief about that, are they? Well, if KA guys are such racists, then how do you explain that? As with all social phenomena involving human behavior, it's a little more complicated than you think.

You make it sound like every or most KA guy has a hangup about this. Not true. There are tons, I'd say most, who don't give a shit one way or another.

Stop spreading misinformation.

[Michael Hurt]

Thanks for the post, but I stand by my point. I'm not saying that every KA guy has a hangup about this. What I am saying is that out of the people who do bother to say something, make a comment, or somehow otherwise put down a couple whom they don't even know because they are "opposed" for some reason or another to interracial dating, the reaction is largely motivated, in the end, to plain, old racist revulsion. Dressed up, sometimes, in fancy speak.

For those of KA's who pass an interracial couple and go on about their business, I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about a self-selecting group of people who seems to go out of their way to make comments.

And I don't think I'm obssessed with the issue. I've got one blog article on the subject, since it came up, and I feel I've said what I needed to say on the topic.

Most of my other posts, you'll find, have to do with pictures, signs and meanings in the pictures, and other esoteric things that fill my leetle brain.

And as for being a big, brown man sometimes seen walking *GASP* with a Korean woman, no one has really said anything yet to me, although sometimes the stares speak volumes. But again, I think that's because I am, as mentioned, big and brown. Speaking Korean and not being too fond of PDA helps a lot to throw people. I've found that speaking English loudly in public places is enough to set people off by itself, and the fact that I generally tend to be speaking in Korean when I'm out with a companion helps the issue.

But coming from the "liberal" Berkeley campus, where it's gotten back to my ears from honest KA undergraduates that they hear their friends expressing their complete revulsion and disgust with any "tarnished pussy" and other choice expressions, the fact that a KA female grad student received lewd messages and rape/death threats for being seen walking across the campus talking animatedly with *GASP* her black main professor, and myriad other anecdotal examples don't give me the general impression that those expressing their protest at seeing interracial couples are having a reasoned, politically-oriented response to seeing the phenomenon before them.

And most of the fellow KA's around me in Korea, who all express disgust at seeing the white man get his freak on in Asia (hey, I admit that I'm annoyed by some of these freak boys too) all tend to put on the intellectual airs of the "dynamics" of the relationship and make all kinds of assumptions about individual couples they see passing by.

I myself sometimes have the same urge to make assumptions. But feeling that there's some political weight behind what is actually a prejudice (defined in its strictest sense as "pre-judging", which is, no matter how we want to cut it, what we're doing) doesn't make it appropriate.

That's all I'm saying.

[bluejives]

Let's cut to the chase, shall we?

Aside from your ample supply of "anecdotal evidence", which can be embellished or just plain fabricated for all I know (after all you DO seem to have a certain agenda and a bone to pick), is there anything that ever happens to an IR couple besides just being stared at? I have never heard of any IR couple actually being killed or physically harmed by some Korean man with an Iago complex, or any Asian man, in Korea, other parts of Asia, or in the West. If you can produce any hard evidence (by this I mean published news articles, NOT personal anecdotes) of such incidents, please make them known because I sure can't.
On the other hand, there are plenty of recent cases of sexual assault and violence specifically targeted against Asian women by Western men such as the White male Princeton student who committed dozens of sexual offenses against Asian women, the KoreaTown serial rapist, a Black male who specifically targets Korean women in LA, the case of a 22-year-old Japanese language student who was murdered by her White boyfriend, and the US serviceman who sexually assaulted a 10 year old girl in Okinawa.

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2005/05/26/news/13021.shtml
http://www.canyon-news.com/artman/publish/article_2998.php
http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/Stories/0,1413,206~22097~2923214,00.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/japanusmilitarycrimechildsexokinawa

Frankly, the only complaint I've ever heard from people in IR is that they get stared at. Well guess what? You're gonna get stared at, esp in Korea. To borrow your own words: deal with it, get over it, stop complaining.

I'm a Kyopo male living in the US with a White gf. What the hell do you think happens to me? White and Black guys alike assume that we're just friends or acquaintance and they'll hit on her right in my presence.Some Asian women treat my gf with a degree of hostility whenever we're in the Korean or Asian community. And I get stared at. Do I go online and write long essays how White, Black guys, and Asian women are racist jerks? No, but maybe I should, eh?

Let me explain why KA guys might have a problem with seeing Korean women with White guys. Most Asian males, not just Korean, who grew up in the West have had the common experience of meeting too many Asian women who've maintained a strange and curious policy of dating ONLY White guys (for whatever reasons and there's a whole bunch of them, most which is utter bullshit). With this being the case, don't you think it's kind of understandable, albeit misguided, why the guys would react the way they do. Don't tell me you've never heard of this having been around plenty of KA's and having gone to Berkeley and all. But funny how you don't mention THAT in your little essay. Don't you think that's rather racist also? Being discriminatory against your own kind? But I guess that line of questioning doesnt really fit into your little agenda now, does it?

Furthermore, I find it deplorable how you've managed to backstab all these guys whom you've known personally, who've taken you into their confidence and shared their taboo secrets, by spreading lies. Good job. You reap what you sow and what goes around will come around.

[Michael Hurt]

OK - I think you're overreacting.

I wrote a single post that asserted an opinion – which I still consider valid – that goes counter to what I hear all the time as the overwhelming pattern of responses to non-Korean men seen with Korean women.

Why do I have to "prove" what I hear around me constantly from KA's via verifiable news reports? Do conversations, rumors, and prejudices get reported in the news? I'm just saying what most of the KA people I've heard talking smack about IR couples never seem to want to hear: that judging people based on whom they are apprently romantically involved with is rooted in prejudicial thinking.

Isn't that what you describe in your own experience? Do I not hear pain in your words as you describe the disrespect you feel when people treat you in certain ways?

Well, I'm just saying that the same assumptions are in operation when KA's snicker at white dude and the Korean girl she's with because "she's probably a hooker" or "she just dating a dumb GI." My point is that yes, there are dumb GI's and hookers and all kinds of people out there, but why do we think it's ok to start making judgements based on our preconceived notions?

I'm simply saying that this is not alright. I'm simply saying that it's more rooted in simple racism than even the self-described "intellectuals" would like to believe.

And I didn't say I was complaining about people staring at me in Korea. People stare at me as a rule. I'm cool with that. I'm just saying that KA people make comments all the time in public that they consider to be OK. And I'm saying I don't think they're OK.

That's about it. I'm not debating who gets assaulted more, or measuring who experiences more relative oppression, or who has it worse that other folks.

I'm just saying racism is racism. And dressing it up as "political" or otherwise intellectualizing it because it's critical of white people doesn't make it not racist.

That's all I'm saying, dude. And it sounds like we generally agree. So why you so angry?

[Michael Hurt]

And dude - I wrote a single post about being frustrated with KA's calling IR couples out for no real reason other than their own issues. I don't think I have an "agenda."

Most of what I write is about Seoul life, photos, and whatever issue in Korean society I happen to be particularly thinking about these days.

And yeah – if you hear racist crap going on around you being spewed by people of ANY race, you should write what you feel. That's what blogging's for, right?

[bluejives]

Have you ever confronted those KA guys when they state offensive remarks such as what you describe? I mean like face-to-face like a man? Or do you just talk about it on your little blog? Tell the truth.

My contention with you is that you happen to be privy to both sides of the issue. But you take an issue which is a major source of angst, not just for KAs, but other AA guys as well, and use it to broadly paint KA guys as racial intolerents. If you're interested in "everyone just getting along", why don't you apply your Rodney King statement across the board? Why don't you identify and call out the White guys and the Korean women on their bullshit as well?

[oranckay]

Bluejives, what gives?

Talk about having an agenda.

Mr. Hurt - If the things you discuss have any validity, it means there are a few people out there who are going to be very troubled by the things you discuss.

Even if racism on the part of KA's is one zillionth the size of the problem of racism towards them, it's still a problem if you've been faced with it. Many non or less than 100% ethnic koreans in the US who speak Korean or study it are met with surprising hostility. I've run into it myself and I've heard of it from many others.

Obviously it is a far, far smaller problem - just in terms of the number of victims - than racism _towards_ Korean Americans, but it's pretty pathetic to attack someone who is talking about the racism he's experienced by demanding he talk about other forms of it.

[Kevin]

Bluejives, you are upset that this blog author writes a post criticizing those who look down on interracial relationships and you have a white girlfriend?

What's really behind all your anger? You are pissed at people who discriminate against you, but are even more pissed that this blogger threatens your right to discriminate against others for doing the same thing?

And four cases of Americans (black and white) harrassing or attacking Asians means what? Do you really think I can't find 4 stories of Koreans doing the same with foreign women? Yet you present this is as if you have 'proved' something. I guess your grad school doesn't offer any courses on critical thinking...

Relax and think about what you are really upset about here. You aren't coming off that well...

[matt]

Great post. I have bookmarked your site, and will check regularly.

[Zenith]

Interesting post...

A word to bluejives: there won't be any "hard" evidence in Korea about attacks on interracial couples because, for the time being anyways, Korean police will not pursue it and Korean media will not report it.

White and black expats in Korea get publicly menaced and threatened here regularly, and attacked once in a blue moon. 7 years in-country, that is just a fact no matter how much you sneer. Given the level of hate in your posts here and on the Marmot, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd participated in a few, dude.

Anger management. Look into it.

[bluejives]

I'm not denying that many KA guys say some fucked up things, as Michael Hurt described. All I'm saying is cut the bullcrap and stop acting like KA guys are the only one's being jerks and that everyone else is an innocent victim. Everyone involved are guilty of racism, bigotry, intolerance, and hypocrisy and that includes White guys, Black guys and Korean women. If you don't know (or pretend to not know) what I am talking about, I'd be glad to expand upon it for your edification.

[bluejives]

Oh and while I may have "anger management" issues (try spending practically all your life being racially stereotyped, ridiculed for being who you are by both white/black individuals and the media, and being discriminated against by women of your own kind and see how calm you'd be), some of you need to improve your reading comprehension skills. No where did I condone the behavior of KA guys as Micheal Hurt describes because I believe that's foolish. My contention stems from the fact that he gives a highly one-sided view of the matter and makes quick and easy judgments about KA guys.

[oranckay]

Bluejives, you're reminding me of the people who yell at me for not talking about the human rights situation in NK every time I talk about the civil rights situation in SK. I talk about situation in SK, or the recent past under the dictatorships, because it's what I know and what I experienced and what matters in my daily life because I've lived in the South. Doesn't mean it's worse than NK by any means. However, there are some who come very close to suggesting that SK doesn't matter at all because NK is worse, and that's just nuts. Accusations of "giving a highly one-sided view of the matter" sound quite familiar.

[ming]

Hi,I came from this link.
http://muninn.net/blog/2005/06/korea-a-multi-ethnic-society.html
"UPDATE: See this fantastic, if sometimes quite emotional posting over at Metropolitician "

My Japanese cousin has married to Korean for 2 years.
She told me that her husband's relatives don't like her because of nationality.
They sometimes call her Chokpali which is racial slur against Japanese.
What surprised me was the Korean relativs want apology from her parents for the colonization by imperial Japan in early 20th century.

[dogbert]

I don't believe that "bluejives" has a girlfriend.

[Zenith]

"I'm not denying that many KA guys say some fucked up things, as Michael Hurt described. All I'm saying is cut the bullcrap and stop acting like KA guys are the only one's being jerks and that everyone else is an innocent victim."

Everbody, look closely at what Bluejives has said here....and be honest. I agree with him that KA guys are being viciously targeted, and what he is really trying to say is that it is possible for anyone to be a jerk online....

[Yamanin]

Regarding Bluejives question about an interracial couple being "actually physically harmed by a Korean man", one that comes to mind is the infamous 1995 subway incident. Unfortunately, because it happened before the web was widespread in Korea, I can't find any direct newspaper reports referring to it, but it was widely reported at the time and is not merely 'anecdotal.' Some Korean man, seeing an American GI in the company of his Korean wife, walked up to the woman, called her a whore, and spit in her face. The husband, not surprisingly, responding by punching the guy, leading to the arrest of him and companions. The newspapers reported the incident the next day as a bunch of drunken GIs harrassing a Korean woman and then attacking the valiant Korean man who came to her defense. Only after several weeks did the truth of the incident come out.

Personally, I have received my share of verbal harrassment, which is always frightening since there's always the fear that it will lead to physical violence, but luckily that hasn't happened yet. Most recently, a few months ago my Korean wife and I were waiting at a bus stop and some crazed ajossi started screaming obscenities at us. Luckily nothing happened, but my wife was certainly put on edge.

[MizarFive]

Another great article.

One area of disagreement with something you phrased in a quite interesting way:

\"In sum, since most Koream thinking is deeply American (identity politics and the constant conversation about me, me, me)...\"

Interesting. \"Korean thinking\" so often has very little in common at all with \"American thinking\" but I suppose it takes more than just five years in country and conversational Korean to begin to grasp this.

As for the construction of the sentence, embedding it as a subordinate phrase is an interesting way of glossing over the fact that it is merely an assumption, a hypothesis rather than a legitimate syllogistic premise. It\'s an interesting logical fallacy - I\'ll have to look this one up!

[Michael Hurt]

Just a quick thing to point out - this may solve the problem:

I didn't say "Korean thinking" but "Koream thinking," which is short for "Korean American" thinking. I was saying that since most Korean Americans are (more than they know) deeply American and figure that out once they get to Korea (which for most, as a country and lived culture that is almost as far outside of their ken as it is for any other American, with or without Korean food at home and being a part of a very limited part of Korean culture as experienced in the home in America).

The reason I say this is because the #1 thing that the majority of Korean Americans (Koreams) I know and whom I have have taught report back is that the biggest lesson they learned in their Korea experience was just how American they really were.

That's what I mean here. And the assumptions of identity politics themselves are so very American ("I have the right to define my own identity" or even the assumption that there is something concrete to be "found" in the trip "home") when they are closely examined.

In any case, perhaps that was the crux of the confusion there? Not "Korean thinking" but "Koream thinking."

[yuppers]

That was interesting, but pretty long. I think you've broken new ground in trying to find an identity for yourself. Im sorry that you cannot quite fit in either category, and I am sure if you did, your thinking would be vastly different. In as far as making an identity for yourself, you only care about KA identity because you surround yourself with them. I guess you have a love hate relationship with Korean Americans. But if you think that identity politics in itself is wrong, its obviously because you find yourself so difficult to fit in one yourself. I guess it must be difficult to find other blasians.

[annonymous]

Well, growing up in the racist USA, how can Asian Americans and other minorities not be affected by the racial politics that occurs here?

As for the insecurities of AA, I know that it only is a major problem in the USA and not in Europe, South America, and other countries. The racial stereotypes of Asians is much more positive in those countries than it is in America. Why is it in America, minorities are treated like sh*t and negative stereotypes abound with racial tension everywhere? Because only in America, does racism pervades every inch of society and this is why multiculturalism is a failure over here. Yes, America is the most diverse country in the world, but that does not mean the races interact and get along with each very well here. In fact, the USA may be the most segregated country on the planet...And yes, racism is a problem in Asia--but that has more to do with ignorance and a lack of diversity than it has to do with the level of racism that occurs in the United States.

[The Metropolitician]

Hey, all I'm saying is I don't like to have me and my parents called "disgusting" over dinner. And if you're going to insult a married couple's being together and about to have a baby, then do it amongst other Asian Americans who are equally disgusted at my very existence.

Everybody has stereotypes levied against them. And Asian American men certainly don't have it worse than anyone else. It's just that not everyone wears their chips on their shoulder so obviously as everyone else, nor do they insult their supposed "friends" with stupid racist statements at the Sizzler.

[lazy azy]

interesting post. always gets people riled up.

for the record, i agree with mr. hurt that "identity politics" has its problematics. as a korean american/asian american/heterosexual male with "average" korean speaking ability who has no gyopo friends to speak of--nor had any in the states except an korean american ex-girlfriend--i agree that many--certainly not all--korean/korean american males aversion to "interracial couples" (usually white/asian) is usually just a mask for their unresolved issues of racism, sexism, and homophobia.

i find it problematic, though, to dismiss bluejives comments as mostly reactionary,insecure, race-baiting rhetoric, however. his claims, for the most part, are legitimate (i.e. "emasculation" of asian men, being rejected by asian women, etc.) but I agree with mr. hurt that we should all "get over it" in so far as pushing for a NEW "identity," one where "asian americans" can be pot-smoking, milf-loving, and yes, even sexist, homophobic indian and korean "american" dudes from hoboken).

i myself have never completely identified with the "korean american" clan. i've always been an outsider; most of my friends have always been black, arab, latino, or white.

many of the korean americans i have met here, as well as in l.a. (the mecca of "korean american politicking"), are just as mr. hurt describes: unaware or unwilling to admit their own "privilege" as rich 2nd generation koreans who get to live it up in seoul on a whim, talk shit about their "identity issues," while never actually doing anything about it.

course, there ARE the exceptions, and these are probably the types that have passed the grade for mr. hurts strict "criteria to be my friend" policy. it's okay though, i'm the same.

i think it's important to distinguish those "ignorant" korean americans (along with the same ignorant ex-pat white/black/brown/mixed/hapa ____fill in the blank____ "foreigners") with the more thoughtful and critical ones. but i also think the "ignorant people's" sentiments are often the same; they're just not as eloquent as you in articulating without sounding like a whiny, insecure pseudo-intellectual.

gyopos are jealous of "mixed Koreans" like mr. hurt because they can "pass" in the states. course, this is usually more the case for white/korean babies. this is where "identity politics" gets really interesting. "mixed koreans" tend to be jealous--just like my old boss was towards me--because they believe we can "pass" more easily in korean society. in my case, this is compounded by the fact that i'm a "gyopo man," which naturally makes almost every gyopo girl hate me :) and i don't necessarily blame them, which is why i do my best not to play the "gyopo guy card."

still, mr. hurt is the product of a black man and korean woman's pairing. the vast majority of "mixed koreans" have a korean mother and white father. this is what interests me. could it be, and i might be completely wrong, that you have less an emotional reaction to the white/asian couple thing cuz you've always identified more as "black" or "brown" or "mixed?" or could it also be because your own parents are themselves a IR couple, so of course it wouldn't bother you? you'll probably say it's more because you prefer not to see everything within a lens of race and power when looking at romantic couples (some things should be sacred, after all), but i'm not sure. everything is political, if you want it to be.

i've heard that korean women date "foreign guys" (almost always white) because they want to a) practice their english b) they've always been "curious" c) they want to try something new and it's there d) they like the idea of living abroad or having mixed babies. arguably, korean men would flock to white women as much, but you just don't see this happening (barring the rare russian/eastern european example)

is it because asian men are so sexist, that they have a need to assert their hypermasculinity and are therefore intimidated from "stronger western women," or that their english is poor and their shy to APPROACH western women? or is it because most of the white women who come to korean are, for the most part, a lot less pretty than katie holmes? possible. (then again, most of the white guys here are pretty rank too)

korean men, as a whole, are quite sexist. i'll be the first to admit this. many gyopo men are sexist, too. isn't it fair to say, though, that most MEN are sexist, racist, homophobic, and prejudiced in general?

for that matter, many korean women are equally "sexist" (i.e. they perpetutate the notion of the hyper feminized), but you would never call it that since they don't have power in that regard. this is why i think it's problematic for westerners to say koreans are sexist when the former--particularly white westerners--are the ones with all the power, globally speaking. when "your" people are the ones who basically control a country culturally, militarily, and politically, it's harder to argue that you face any significant "discrimination." and it's also easier to understand why, if patriachy still rules most of the world--including the "free" u.s of a, the men of a "colonized" country like korea, and its "2nd generation immigrants" would have beef against you dating "their women." you might get evil stares, threats of harrassment... but you still get the benevolent side of "discrimination," be it getting high wages with little or no experience, having your movies and white face worshipped throughout asia, or just being able to kick it here years on end--hell, even making a family to further justify your notion that "race has nothing to do with privilege" argument--without ever learning the language. for the record, i don't buy into the "my women" argument, but i can understand why korean/ka/asian men who perpetuate this.

it's like arguing why black people in the u.s. are so "angry." that assumption reaks of privilege, but is no different. when you've had things structurally against you so long, your "emotional" argument gets cast aside in favor of "rational thought," you would be a little annoyed as well. this is why white men, in general, are so zen and "calm" when it comes to the issue of IR couples. when you've always got it, what's there to complain about?

i'm critical of ANYONE who hates on others without being honest about the bullshit happening in their own "community." i'm talking about the same korean/korean americans who whine about emasculation and asian/white couples without putting any energy into denouncing korean men doing the same thing in poorer parts of asia (many gyopo men are guilty of this as well).

still, if "foreigners" (white men in particular) are the ones coming here because "the system exists" and they'd be a fool NOT to take advantage of all the perks that come along with it (including "easy" access to korean/asian women)it goes without saying that they have the most power in the situation and thus, benefit, the most from it. i'm talking about white privilege, which everyone, including korean WOMEN and not just korean men, should REALLY be concerned and angry about.

asian am/korean am studies is, for the most part, always the same thing. it's often a self-serving discipline that only focuses on me, me, me--as mr. hurt put it. there isn't enough talk about how we're all part of the picture and all have our own prejudices and privileges to sort out within ourselves.

most asian men go ballistic seeing IR couples because they can't articulate what they feel, except the immediate reaction of hurt, jealousy, and years of feeling invisible, unattractive, or "unmanly" growing up. mr. hurt is right that the first step to empowerment is to stop defining ourselves within the narrow parameters of "white masculinity." it's like koreans trying to be white, american, and "modern." it's never gonna happen cuz what they're chasing was always a hypocritical myth.

the notion of "our women" is difficult to defend. then again, every race under the sun has a legacy of thinking this way. whites are certainly the most guilty of this, where "white womanhood" was always considered the "prize" of white masculinity. if mr. hurt is arguing that korean/ka men using this argument to invalidate IR couples have a weak argument, then i agree with him completely.

for some reason, i have no problem with korean women with anyone but white men. maybe it's the history of whiteness and white supremacy in the states and in asia that disturbs me the most, and the fact that most white men, and especially the korean women, in such IR couples are completely oblivious of this fact. if they aren't and they talk about issues of power then i might be more accepting.

i'm in a relationship and i talk about my privilege as a american gyopo male in korea. these are the conversations we should be having.

am i against IR couples? no... but i am critical of statistics that say the outmarriage rate of asian women to white men is nearly twice that of asian men and among the highest of any ethnic group. i'm critical that the same brand of western racism where whites are on top and the darker your skin is the lower you are is stronger than ever in korea. i'm critical that harold and kumar is our only "role model" to follow in the mainstream and that its sequel's future is in question. i'm critical that "the grace lee project" isn't seen outside the indie documentary circuit. i'm critical that my mom who's lived in the u.s. as long as she has lived in korea still gets all the requisite stereotypes of the weak, bumbling, asian woman.

so IR couples, esp. white/asian couples are to blame for all this? of course not. but i definitely think they complicate the picture and are symptomatic of larger structural inequalities.

asian men need to stop whining and start APPROACHING. learn some game, hit the clubs and shit... start picking up black women in droves and make people like mr. hurt really start questioning ;) take an ethnic studies class. volunteer at food not bombs. stop going to that massage parlor and hitting the corny gangnam bars at night.

for everyone else doing something actively to understand more, whine less i give you props.

[white guy from alaska]

you really think asians are the racist ones?

i think you may have been living in korea for too long. forgot how racist and sexist we american whites can be, as well.

difference is asian men ain't "stealing MY women."

http://www.ocweekly.com/news/news/yellow-fever/26126/