Thanks, Occidentalism

Yeah, it may sound like the world is ending, or there's a strange new kind of sunshine policy going on 'round here. But I guarantee you, no secret money's been exchanged or under-the-table deals brokered. Matt and I have been talking directly, and realized that we're both normal people who will disagree about certain things.

On my end, since I consider this blog's raison d'etre that of promoting dialogue, I've also decided to stop lobbing missiles over the virtual water. Like North and South Korea, both my site and Occidentalism are going to continue to exist and continue to see things from a somewhat different point-of-view. The only thing I can do is try to do what I do well and continually better, and really recommit myself to promoting dialogue and not trying to win arguments for the sake of winning them, which leads to falling into the emotion of the moment and going past lines I'd rather not have. I think Matt feels the same way over on his end.

So, Occidentalism, thanks for the post on the site as the gesture of goodwill we talked about. I'm returning the favor. Let a new sunshine era begin!

Don't we need a staged picture of us shaking hands in suits? And who gets to have the bad haircut?

Comments

[Matt]

Michael, when I visit Korea we can take that picture... hopefully over soju and looking like drunk Korean salarymen in suits!

Looking forward to it.

[Nathan B.]

I think this is a good move.

[seouldout]

Glad to see both of you getting out of the mud. Though my views are closer to Matt's, I enjoy both your blogs and visit daily. And I felt the criticism of your writing style was unfair. Nothing wrong with things done with a bit of panache.

[Dezlord]

Yeah it's awesome when people put aside their differences. I think both of you want the best for Korea. I really enjoy both of your blogs even though I now live in Japan. I read them both daily. Thanks for the hard work both of you. Lets hope the people of north east asia try to put aside their differences as well and try to etch out some kind if diplomatic peace.

[gordsellar]

Whoever doesn't have the really bad haircut needs to get an eye job.

But seriously, this is good. Congrats to both of y'all...

[JK]

Mike, you have a good site. But no matter how legitimate your writing is, thanking Occidentalism for supporting and agreeing with some of your posts that legitimately critique Korea is like thanking Hitler because he agrees with MY assessment that Soviet-style Communism is no good: I may be right (that Communism sucks) and in the past I may have had large disagreements with Nazi dictator Hitler, but just because he supports me in my assessment of the inefficiencies and corruption within Communism does not mean I should thank the guy. It kind of takes away some of the legitimacy from my own arguments. Also, imagine if Hitler used MY critique of Communism (again, which would be as legitimate as your own posts about Korea)to support his own racist agenda....which in his case, was the genocide of Slavs and Russians and Jews.

In a nutshell, Michael, I am saying that while you write well and I agree with most of what you say about Korea, keep in mind the devil you may be going to bed with when you thank said devil who supports SOME of your points about Koreans.

Oh, one more example: David Duke, the former wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, sometimes makes points that I agree with. Can you imagine if I started thanking David Duke because he supports some of my thoughts on problems in the US? I don't care if he and I DID come to some sort of agreement through direct talks. And I don't care if he DOES quote me and supports one of my points. But should I thank him for his support????? Wouldn't that take away MY credibility and show that I value the appeasement with David Duke more than I do my own principles??

[The Metropolitician]

Oh - I'm far from compromising principles, I think.

Basically, we just agreed to disagree on certain things, and I just don't have the energy to try to engage in a jihad against anyone's site anymore, nor have people seeing my site as the place to defend his, or even be involved with a debate about these points that we both realize we won't agree over.

In emails to each other, we both expressed we were just tired of the fight, that we both got a little hot under the collar about that fight, and that since there's no way to to bring either side to the other, why not just stop the war?

Or at least that's the way I see it. I just want to blog in peace and in as reasonable environment as possible; actively waging a war against Occidentalism or whomever in such a specific way is just tiring and pointless to me. I just want to "fight the good fight" by making good, long (yes, often rambling) posts about stuff that needs to be talked about.

In that sense, I feel I'm returning to truer, purer, better blogging – taking pictures, writing essays by things that really get me going – as opposed to directly attacking an issue via a person or a site.

And unlike David Duke and some liberal guy sitting down over drinks, what I realize is that in some big picture way, both this site and that site are on the same general side of the fence about Korea and critiquing it. But at the same time, my way of doing it is very, very different, I think. But I decided that rather than attack that difference and the site and person – which isn't really going to change anything, but rather just be an exercise in creating negative energy – it'd be best to get back to what I think I'm better at doing, which is just blogging the hell out of something and then waiting for something else to inspire me.

And another reason I wanted to make peace and move on is that I am embarrassed at how other of my standards of behavior, politeness, and general comportment became compromised to the point that I was cursing at people, engaging in potentially libelous accusations made with no other purpose than to drag other people into the mud, and generally reacting more out of the pure desire to take down an individual than deal with an issue.

In the end, I just felt like it was me and a guy going at it in public, and from my end, it started being more about me, my ego, and me wanting to win arguments than getting some good ideas and words and pictures out there.

Does that mean I love that site and that guy and we summer in the Hamptons together now? No. It just means that we've just decided to let each other be each other and to basically untangle ourselves from a never-ending web of attack, respond, flame, dis, indignantly respond, etc.

I just hated writing long posts and responses to the specifics of a flamewar, rather than spending that time really getting into the meat of some juicy issue that needs a metropolitical level of rambling and musing.

And just on the human level – even though Occi's not my favorite site in the world, I must give kudos to the fact that, since I assume Matt must have been as irritated and pissed at me as I was at him, he reads my stuff and comments, which is more than I can say for myself, since I am snide and selfish with my blog reading as I am about the stuff I pick and choose to write about.

So the way I see it, we were two fighter engaged in a never-ending grapple, but got so tired of it after a point that we both agreed to simply end the fight, make a simple friendly gesture, and walk away without trying one last jab to the back or some such.

I think a better historical example would be the US and USSR during the Cold War; even the bitterest of opponents develop a healthy respect for the other not because they want to capitulate, but rather because they know they can't be simply beaten or taken out of the game. So they stand down, disengage, and draw lines in the sand (or in our blogging case, simply agree to disagree).

And as the pride thing goes, knowing how he had called me crazy and all sorts of stuff before, then initiates a post praising one of my posts – yeah, it sounds cheesey, but that Charlie Brown was a better man than me for doing it. Takes a lot of pride swallowing – especially in front of the people who like our work – to give praise to the guy you were just calling an idiot.

And I know it may seem strange to think so, I still think Matt went even further than I did in extending the olive branch. He actually praised my site, whereas I kind of sneakily and carefully avoided doing the same regarding him. I simply thanked him for praising me. That's it.

Yes, maybe what he did was political, or for more blog hits, or for whatever. Sure, might be true. Who knows? But from the perspective of a blogger with an ego, a significant amount of people watching, and a web reputation to think about, I didn't feel like he did so lightly.

I'm just happy to return to real blogging, without getting weighed down by fighting and yelling and pulling my hair out. I know this also sounds stupid, but I take such things as seriously as if a person was doing that to me in person, and these flame wars actually caused me stress, irritation, and loss of sleep. Who needs that?

And since all this negativity endsed recently, I think I've hit one of the best strides I've hit in a while in terms of blogging. And since being free of that job, I just want to take photos, record podcasts, and write. So I made peace with Occi and Matt with no regrets.

In the end, I think I'm much better off for it, as is the blog. Wouldn't you agree?

[Hshin]

JK,

You forgot to compare Occidentalism to Pol Pot and Satan in your straw-man rant.

Here is something to read JK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

I think a lot of k-bloggers read both blogs and respect both Mike and Matt for their different and intelligent point of views.

But who are you JK? I have read a few comments by you, and you seem only to be interested in attacking people while you remain in the shadows. In fact I seem to remember reading quite a few racist remarks you made. Racist JK! Is that what you and David Duke agree upon? Why not make your own blog where you can state your own views.

[JK]

Michael, once again, let me say I like what you have to write and respect your views on Korea and such. And because you make legitimate critiques of Korean society, I will continue to read your blog.

However, since you did ask me if I agree with your recent actions regarding Matt as doing more good than not, then I must say, no, I do not agree with you. A truce, no problem. But thanking a person with an obvious racist bias against anything and everything Korean(probably because of the number of Korean girls who turned him down, which is why he has to brag on his public blog about the few who DID say yes to him, thus painting as negative a portrait of Koreans as he can) publicly really would be like me thanking David Duke for supporting my posts about something I wrote critical of African-Americans.

I am of Korean descent. Yes, I find Matt's intentional slant of news to paint Koreans in the worst light possible to be laughable. BUT I also realize that he poses a danger where people may actually start to believe this nonsense.

Then you post something legit about Koreans. He uses this to further his agenda. Okay, all fair in love and blogging, and he has the right to quote and link to you. But when you THANK him....

Let me present my David Duke analogy again. I write a post about my dealings with African-Americans (and I do encounter African-Americans everyday, like you do Koreans). Now let's say I make a comment about African-Americans in general and how they conduct business or how they manage their companies or whatever (and a lot of my non-black American colleagues DO have strong opinions on this). Quite a few African-Americans would be sensitive to my comments, not that that would make my points any less legitimate, in my view. Likewise quite a few Koreans would be sensitive to your own comments about Koreans, no matter HOW legitimate your points are. But that's neither here nor there....

We already have a complex enough picture here with this analogy as it is. Now let's say I engage in a blog war with David Duke because I say that while I make legit critiques of African-Americans, he has an obvious agenda of hatred and making African-Americans look as poorly as possible....even if a FEW of his entries discuss legit issues (but also with a not-so-well-hidden agenda or making blacks look negative).

Now after a LONG blog war between the both of us, David Duke and I come to an agreement about our blogs about African-Americans. Let's even say that I announce a truce with him and that we agree to disagree. Okay, fine. But then let's ALSO say I thank him for plugging my latest entry, legitimately (in my hypothetical analogy) critical of African-Americans, KNOWING that while he may have extended an olive branch out to me, he was also using my entry to further his racist cause of making black people look bad.

Then let's say I write (paraphrasing what you wrote in your comment above): "...both my site and David Duke's site are on the same general side of the fence about African-Americans and critiquing them." Tell me how you would feel? BTW, I know MANY Americans who are not racist who DO share SOME common beliefs with David Duke regarding welfare and so-called racial quotas for college admissions and jobs. If these non-black Americans with (perhaps) legitimate critiques of African-Americans announced they were "on the same general side of the fence" about African-Americans as David Duke, I daresay a good many African-Americans would think these people lost most, if not all, of their credibility in their critiques, no?

I am not saying continue to fight Matt. Nay, if you choose never to argue with him, that is your right and is fine by me and others who find his racist site about Koreans offensive, though childishly amusing. My point is you reaching out to thank him for his plug of your post....because you felt he was proactively extending the olive branch to you seems an overappeasement. Now going back to my hypothetical example, imagine if David Duke extended the proverbial olive branch to me, supported my (perhaps legitimate) critique of African-Americans, and put up a link to my blog entry. Should I THANK HIM??? And then should I say that David Duke and I are "on the same general side of the fence" about African-Americans??? I could be wrong on this Michael, but I think this would take away a lot of legitimacy from my blog about African-Americans (if I had one) should I make a statement like this.

Once again, I am not saying continue the blog war. I admit it can be destructive. But what I am saying is that by returning the olive branch to someone, who in my mind is like David Duke for Koreans, even if he occasionally writes out a legitimate critique of them, you lose quite a bit of your own credibility in your own critiques of Koreans. And that's a shame because you and he are two different kinds of people with two totally different agendas. You come across as someone who seems more observing and trying to get along with Koreans and point out things that need to be pointed out while only occasionally writing angry complaining (usually legitimate) posts about Koreans and Korean society. Now, do you wish to be seen in the same light as Matt of Occidentalism???? If so, you got a little of your wish with this post and the ensuing comment. Say the war is over, but....why go beyond this? And why try to legitimize his blog by saying you two are "on the same side of the fence"??? Again, imagine if the topic was African-Americans and the two people were David Duke and me.

[JK]

Michael, I wonder if you and Matt started writing critical posts of the Japanese if the so-called "Hshin" would have the same opinion that he just expressed. Since the topic is Koreans, Hshin (most probably NOT a Korean) is okay with Matt's page. No surprise.

[kihyon]

Gesture of making peace is never wrong, as long as you're not a politician.

[kihyon]

But I must say identifying yourself 'which side you are on', on such a formidable and sensitive issues as hearts and minds of Korean is ill-witted and arrogant even if you're a school boy. In that respect, I find the very reason of JK's raising argument appealing. But then again, JK's response could be easlily translated into another invitation of ill-witted games of "which side are you one?"

[JK]

Hihyon,

Not "which side you're on."

Peace and end to fighting is great, and in no way am I advocating continuing the war. What I am saying is that because a certain person who was in the RIGHT (Michael) put more energy than may have been advisable with someone who was clearly WRONG (Matt of Occidentalism) and thus finds the ensuing truce with the latter person to be so attractive after all the negative, angry energy spent....he (Michael), in addition to reaching an attractive truce, goes the extra mile and thanks the person clearly in the wrong for his support....and even says that in general the two are on the same side of the fence regarding an entire nationality of people. Keep the peace, great. I'm just saying the same thing could apply if I had had a discussion critiquing African-Americans with David Duke; there'd be the occasional agreement, lots of disagreement, and then a truce (because there's no choice after a lot of fighting). However, I would hope I would never thank David Duke for plugging my blog and say "we're on the same side of the fence in general."

That's all I had to say. Wanted to clear up that I am NOT looking for war or this blog; finding a truce and actually going out of your way to give credibilty to a racist who deserves none are two different things, and I hope everyone sees that.

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